"Finally" was my first thought also when I heard this news and my thoughts drifted back to that terrible day in September 2001 when Osama´s name and al-Qaeda became known to the whole world. I also thought of the close to 3 000 people who died as a result of that spectacularly heinous attack on the World Trade Center in New York.
During the day I have thought about my immediate reaction to the news again and again. The event has been the main subject of conversation at work.
Osama was of course only a symbol, his death is also symbolic. Terrorism unfortunately did not die with Osama.
I believe that wars should be avoided at almost any cost, except when our fundamental human rights and liberties are at risk. The terrorists however do hold a gun to the heads of all democracies therefore I do believe that the "war on terror" is legitimate, although I do not always agree with the methods.
In wars the leaders and generals of the enemy are legitimate tactical targets as their passing can reduce or destroy the enemy's ability to sustain combat operations. Even if I personally would have preferred if Osama had been brought to justice, I can understand and sympathize with the necessity of killing him.
Still I have an inner conflict about this, as a person who does not believe the death penalty has any redeeming excuses in a democracy or civilized society. I know I am rationalizing, but I still stick to my initial reaction to the news. "Finally!"
My thoughts go to the families of the victims at World Trade Center.
Good that "OBL" was found, and let's face it. Had he stood trial in the US he would have been left alive for long anyway. Cynically I say that the soldier that shot saved US tax payers some money.
ReplyDeleteTerror and the retaliations to acts of terror leave behind un-countable numbers of griefing widows, widowers, children, relatives and friends...
Let's hope that this day is the first of a path towards a more harmonic world...
"All we are saying, is give peace a chance...."
The soldiers who found bin Laden and stod in the same room with him hade 1/100 of a second to answer the question; -Shell I die or shell he die?
ReplyDeleteThey met an armed man with a woman as a shield surounded with other armed men shooting against them.
If we sitting in our sofas going to judge we must have the whole picture clear to us.
This is a comment in a list with mostly american scientists that I follow:
ReplyDeletePoor Bin Laden, this guy has no luck at all. His central agendas was to have the US spend so much on war and the national security state that it would cause a total financial collapse. But as luck would have it he will have missed this event by a few weeks.
Bob Zannelli
The necessity of killing him, Bock?
ReplyDeleteThere can never be a necessity in my point of view, of killing. Unless it is a very acute situation like the one Vanadis describes.
Death penalty or killing and hunting down humans like prey is murder nothing less.
I feel sick when I see todays pictures of Obama and his entourage watching the killing.
As i feel sick everytime the pictures of the killing of Saddam Hussein comes up in my head. I did the mistake to watch it on television. I regret very much that I looked at it. It was the real thing, close ups on a mans face with the rope on his neck and seconds away from death.
Osama bin Laden was beyond all doubt a mad and dangerous man and surely a killer. But that is no reason for others do sink down to his level.
By the way, I want to recomment a chronicle in the Guardian today, written by the excellent Mona Elthaway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/03/no-dignity-ground-zero-frat-boy
Kandinsky, I totally understand your point of view but it seems to me as if you haven´t done me the honor or reading the whole post where I try to outline my reasoning in explaining my reaction to the news to myself.
ReplyDeleteI believe we must accept that there is a war going on between the Western democracies and - the terrorist organizations (like al-Qaeda). In a war the leaders and generals are tactical targets and therefore it is not wholly unacceptable to kill those leaders.
Of course we cannot ourselves go on acting like terrorist organizations and killing of leaders of countries or organizations which we are not at war with.
I do not condone killing in any situation except war or as self-defense to avert an immediate danger of lives being lost. Nor do I condone execution as an acceptable punishment. I am quite sure I already said that in my post.
Apmel, well I for one hope Mr. Zannelli´s prediction isn't correct.
Vanadis, of course you are correct from the soldiers point of view, there is no blame on them. Those who find fault with the event are I think more focusing on the people and decisions that eventually placed the soldiers in exactly that spot.
PS. I should add to Kandi, that in my mind Osama bin Laden though his leadership of al-Qaeda was - and al-Qaeda still is - an imminent threat to thousands of lives in the Western democracies - and perhaps would have become a threat against the emerging democracies in the Arab counties.
ReplyDeleteYes Bock I have read your post of course and I fully respect your shown ambivalence in this matter. Sorry, I started my comment bit too harsh maybe.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to put out my point of view.
Maybe we have a different view on what a war on terror is and how it must be conducted.
The american way of "war on terror" has produced much more killings than the terrorists have done.
And the the greatest numbers of dead, wheather they are killed by US and it´s allies or the terror groups, are not the ones living in western democraties.
As a matter of fact ten´s of thousends have been killed by western democraties in this war on terror.
To avoid any misunderstanding: I hate terror wherever it shows it´s methods.
Of course our feelings run high on this matter, it in many ways goes to the core of our values and beliefs.
ReplyDeleteWe must also remember that the U.S.A. does not stand alone in the "War on terror", even if they due to their size and leading role in this of course are a major player.
It is often stated - as you do now - that the democracies fighting the war on terror have killed more people than the terrorist organizations have. You also state in your last comment that the democracies have killed tens of thousands in the war on on terror.
I have never been able to find a reliable account of the victims on either side in this war on terror. If you know of one, I wish you would tell me where I can find it.
The modern war on terror started of course with the Iraqi war. The most relied estimater of civil deaths in that war is Iraq Body Count, IBC:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.iraqbodycount.org/
There are other counters that reflect higher numbers, like Wikileaks Iraq war log:
http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/2010/10/23/iraqs-bloodbath/
The Afghan numbers of afghan casualities are more difficult to catch today but here is a serious try:
http://reliefweb.int/node/364470
The article is by UNAMA, UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan.
To find the numbers and names of the killed american and other soldiers is easy.
Both in Iraq and in Afghanistan some civilians are killed by secterists , criminals and talibans of their own nationality. But that is also a result of the chaos when the civil society is torn to pieces by war.
The above listed links count the civilians.
But there are also thousends of soldiers from US and others killed in these hopeless and useless wars. IBC has their names and portraits on the site.
The most important thing in the discussion of Osama bin Ladens death I think is this:
Bring the criminals to court.
If we do not strongly insist on that there will always be justification for for the ones in power to keep you detained for years without trial, like in the Guantanamo.
Secretly if they want to.
Or for hunting you down and killing you with no more questions. Secretly if the want to.
The best foreign aid a country and a people can have is democracy, press freedom and freedom of religion. Foreign aid should not enrich a few people in power. Foreign aid is ment to help of a country's people to a better life.
ReplyDeleteOsama bin Laden encouraged and financed the mass murder of those who did not share his own beliefs
The war against the Taliban and terror is a war for those freedoms we set higher than anything other. Same reason as the Vikings attacked Lindisfarne, the same reason as Sweden for 30 years fought against Catholicism and liberated Northern Europe from religious oppression.
Does not feel quite right to pity a mass murderer.
Thanks for the links Kandi! But the numbers need to be analyzed also.
ReplyDeleteBelow I quote from the Editors summary of The PLoS analysis "Violent Deaths of Iraqi Civilians, 2003–2008: Analysis by Perpetrator, Weapon, Time, and Location"
"What Do These Findings Mean?
These findings show that during the first 5 years of the Iraq war, civilian deaths varied over time and location and in terms of victim characteristics and targeting of civilians. Although limited to direct deaths and possibly subject to some media bias, these findings show that most civilian deaths were inflicted by unknown perpetrators, and that unknown perpetrators had particularly lethal and indiscriminate effects on Iraqi civilians. However, they also show that Coalition forces had indiscriminate lethal effects on civilian populations. In part, this may be because Coalition forces had a high risk of killing civilians accidentally because they could not easily recognize anti-coalition combatants fighting without uniforms among civilians. Nevertheless, the relatively indiscriminate effects of Coalition aerial weapons highlight the need to change policies relating to the use of air power in future armed conflicts."
The overwhelming numbers of killed civilians has according to the analysis been performed bu "unknown perpetrators" which I cannot help but read as the terrorists.
True there have been thousands killed by the democracies fighting terror, but those numbers dwindle compared to the ones killed by the terrorists.
Of course I agree with you that we can ask ourselves why the the war against terror mostly seems to be fought in Iraq or Afghanistan instead of in Europe or the U.S.A.
Like you, and as I believe did state in my post, I do not always agree with the methods used in the war against terrorism, nonetheless I still maintain it is a war and Osama bin Laden was a legitimate target.
Like you I also believe that the democracies fighting the war need to closely examine the way they fight this war so as not to become terrorists of a sort themselves.